The Truth About Euthanasia from the Animal’s Perspective

✨ Episode Summary
This deeply moving continuation of Animal Talk with Trisha McCagh invites you into one of the most profound and misunderstood moments in the human–animal bond—the final goodbye.

In Part 2, Trisha is again joined by Dr Ann Haccara Holdsworth from Pets at Peace Home Vet Australia, as they go beyond the “how” of euthanasia and into the heart, soul, and experience of the animal themselves.

Together, they explore what animals truly feel at the end of life—revealing that fear is rarely theirs… but often ours. 

This conversation gently reframes death, not as something to dread, but as a transition that can be peaceful, conscious, and even filled with moments of love and joy.

💫 What You’ll Learn 
What animals actually experience at the moment of passing
Why animals are not afraid of death—and what they focus on instead
How our emotions can influence the timing of their transition
The powerful difference between home euthanasia and clinical settings
Important questions to ask (including sedation vs anaesthesia)
Whether children and other pets should be present—and how to decide
The role of animal communication in bringing clarity and peace
How to shift from grief and guilt into gratitude and love

⏱ Key Moments 

00:00 Introduction
01:02 Home vs clinic euthanasia
03:21 Animal experience at end of life
06:33 Creating a peaceful passing
07:52 Comfort, familiarity & choice
09:31 Home euthanasia process
11:25 End-of-life stories
14:21 Choosing the right vet
16:37 Trusting your intuition
17:44 Aftercare options
19:33 Different vet approaches
22:32 Sedation vs anaesthesia
24:21 Key questions to ask
28:53 Children & other pets
33:40 Grief support
39:14 Vet wellbeing
41:01 Final reflections

🎙️ About the Guest
Dr Ann Haccara Holdsworth is a compassionate in-home veterinarian with Pets at Peace Home Vet Australia, specialising in end-of-life care.
Her approach is deeply personalised, creating calm, loving environments where animals can pass peacefully in familiar surroundings. 

📌 Connect with Dr Ann / Pets at Peace Home Vet:
Website & Facebook: https://www.petsatpeacehomevet.com/
Serving Western Australia with compassionate, in-home end-of-life care.

🐊 Animal News Segment – “The Emotional Support Alligator”
This week’s story takes us to Florida, where a man has been bringing his emotional support alligator into public spaces like Walmart—sparking concern, confusion, and ultimately a ban.

But what does the animal think?

The alligator expressed confusion about what’s expected of him
Discomfort being dressed and placed in unnatural environments
Awareness of fear and rejection from people around him
A desire to simply live as an alligator—free, in water, in the sun
💛 Because love isn’t about what we want—
it’s about what feels right for them.

💬 Final Thought
Even in goodbye, there can be peace.
Even in grief, there can be gratitude.
And even at the end… love doesn’t leave—it simply changes form.

📲 Follow, Share & Support
If this episode touched your heart, please follow, share, and subscribe to Animal Talk with Trisha McCagh.
Your support helps bring these deeply meaningful conversations to more people—and reminds others they’re not alone in these moments.

🔥 Hashtags
#AnimalTalkPodcast #TrishaMcCagh #AnimalCommunication #PetLossSupport #RainbowBridge #AnimalLovers #PetParentLife #EndOfLifeCare #EuthanasiaWithLove #AnimalHealing #SpiritualAnimals #PetGrief  #AnimalSoul #GriefSuppor

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome back to Animal Talk with Trisha McKay. Before we continue, I really want to say this. If you haven't listened to part one of this conversation with Dr. Anne yet, I strongly encourage you to pause now and go back to it first. This is one of those discussions that builds layer by layer, and part two will land very differently if you've heard the journey that brought us here. We talk about what animals actually experience around death, why they're not afraid of it, why they worry more about us than themselves, and how our grief can sometimes keep them hanging on longer than they need to. We explore why fear often belongs more to us than to them, how joy and love can still exist right at the end, and how creating the right environment can change everything about this moment. If you're ready to look at the Rainbow Bridge not just through human eyes, but through the eyes of the animals who love us unconditionally, we'll take a breath, settle in, and let's continue this conversation together. Welcome back, Dr. Anne. You are an in-home mobile vet that does this, right? Yep, yep. Now, can we just first discuss how is this how is having this process at home different from, say, uh a normal scenary surgery or an emergency vet? And this is not to say about any of that, it's just to say what is the contrast that you've found.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yep, yep. So um what I found in the in the vet hospital, when I used to work in the vet hospital, is um it's really limited by the protocol of the vet practice, and also on behalf of the some of the people in the vet practice, they've taken all this time, love, and energy to care for them, and it doing this part is not something that they really want to do. Um the the other thing is because of the protocol, usually um our ferry person um needs to be removed from the environment and be given an IV catheter in the arm or the leg. So sometimes that experience of being separated can be a bit tricky, um depending on our VIP, our our patient or our family member, how they respond to that. So fine, you know. Um, but there are some that would prefer to stay with their family and not be separated. Um also uh, you know, they're not at home, they're they're in a different place with different smells. You've got the energy of all the people in the environment, and before that you had the car ride and the this, you know, there's um the tuning into the family and how a distress they are, taking them on the car ride. Um, and there are some, like I I spoke of I visited this uh dear greyhound the other night, and she was not in a position to be moved at at all. It was an emergency, but they couldn't move her at all without her not being able to breathe. So, you know, sometimes you just don't have the the choice of of whether you're at one or the other. You you just got to go with where you where you're at. It's it's quite clean, it's quite quite clinical, um, because it has to be. That's the protocol, that's the professional standard. Um, and it's very, very different, you know, where uh on a table or maybe on the floor, usually. Um at home, um, I've had times where I can just uh tippy toe in. Um I'm especially for those who are extremely anxious or extremely um fear aggressive, where I have it all organized with the family beforehand. Um, they've given meds to make them, you know, a little bit sedate. We'll have everything set up so that um they're facing away from me when I when I am in the when I come into the house. I don't talk at all because we've already done all the preparation before. They'll have them eating their yummy contraband stuff, you know, chocolate or whatever, chicken, all the things they're not meant to apparently have normally. Um and they're so um engrossed in what they're doing that they don't even notice me give that first medicine under the skin like a normal vax here. And all they do is they literally fall asleep uh eating their yummy stuff a few minutes later. Uh I'm quiet as and I'm not really there, but I'm supervising from around the the corner. So that sort of uh piece for someone who has that energy about them, that person personality energy about them, that would not be possible in an environment other than the home. Okay. Um the other the other thing that's lovely is they our our furry person, our family member doesn't have to move at all. They can choose where they want to be. And I have been in a bathtub, in a cupboard, under a bed, on the bed, you know. Um, I've even been under a car, in a car, in the park, by the beach. I remember someone who had a beach party with their friends. They had a chicken all to themselves, and their friends got to share roast chicken, and you know, it was his favorite place with his favorite people eating his favorite food. Um so there's all this versatility there that's possible, all about tailor-making it to what would bring the most joy and peace for the furry person, the our VIP, and uh therefore their family as well. And also there are different possibilities available with uh in terms of positioning. You know, so some people have to have them with them, like on like on them or like on their lap. And sometimes that's very difficult inside the protocol um of working in a um in a in a in a hospital because their their protocol maybe it wouldn't cover that. Um so it it opens up to being able to tailor make what is going to be the most peaceful loving uh process for the furry person and their family.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I'm just sorry, I'm just sitting here gobsmacked under a car, in a car, in a cupboard, under a bed. Look, I have to say, I I don't know if every mobile end-of-care vet does that, but you do, and I'm just in awe because I would do it, but I'm so in awe of you because these animals do say that. Like if I'm asking them, people will ask me, can you ask him where he'd like to, you know? Because sometimes they'll say, Out out the back on the lawn, I like to be under the tree but see the sun, or I want it in the morning, I don't want it late in the day, don't do it at night. There's so many things, it's it's that that's their last experience with you, and some of them are pretty particular. Some of them don't mind, let my mum choose, let my dad choose, let but a lot of them have a very distinct where they want to be, and they often choose what's right for the people where where they find the people are at their most relaxed, their their best, they want it to be a great experience. They want their last experience with you to be great as well, meaning everyone's happy, don't worry about I don't have to be on death's door, I can be, you know, like this, and we can be enjoying. Because you're right, it doesn't happen. It's the car ride. Like most cats, for instance, hate cars. And the the problem is if you've if you're on your own and you've got a 30 kilogram dog, for instance, and it's not going well, you then have to get them into you have to get them there. There's so many reasons when it's at home. Your animal loves being at home. That's its favorite place, you know, other than the beach or something, you know, but it loves being at home, and so do you, and you can choose and you feel comfortable. You also don't have dog sounds, cat sounds, people sounds, banging doors, phones ringing. Just it's it's like this is a special and quiet moment, and that's where you have it. So that's a I think that's very important. So, from what you're saying with your process, that you are you know coming to the home in whatever facet that that turns out to be, because you've already done your pre-work. So you've already met with them or talked with them and explained everything, and now you're down to the actual action, and you come in, and I know with my animals they were scoffing something, and um yeah, exactly what they shouldn't have been, but it was great that you can give them that in that last moment. I it was something for me, it was just something so enjoyable to watch my animal go oh like we do with things. Yeah, and and and hey, stop bothering me, don't pay just gimme, gimme, gimme, you know, it's it was just a beautiful thing. And then you came in behind and you you you give that first medicine and and literally, yeah, they just they they're still breathing, but they're going, they just went to sleep and they've had a big, they've had a big lunch and they're going, I need a nap, and it's yeah, it's just an awesome thing. And then, if direct me if I'm wrong, but then you, without me seeing or really knowing much about it, you gave the final medicine and and then and and that was it. But for me it was a remarkable experience. It was something I can remember with happiness, not grief, not horror or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So that's that is that your process and then Yeah, I uh I I typically will take people through the process um when I first speak with them so they understand what to expect. Because some people, if they don't have information, they just make stuff up in their heads, and it's usually fear-based. So I give them a very clear process and I give them frames around what it means, you know, and how they're going to be feeling. Um, the meds that I use are the ones that they use in the ambulance when we get a broken bone. And apparently, you tell the ambos you love them when they give it to you. So it's apparently a lovely experience in in terms of relief in the body. The the bit that I really want people to understand is that it's around tailor-making it to what would make them happy. I remember this dear boy who was autistic and he had um uh a samoid who was the love of his life, and uh he had prepared a smorgasbord like no other, and it was I I'm talking, it was a huge plate of food, and he had everything in order, the most favorite all the way. Um, and I mean I've I remember this dear, dear little cat. She loved prawns and she loved ice cream, so the family just put them together. So she had prawn ice cream, and her eyes were like, what? She was so happy when she saw the ice cream. She literally fell asleep, still eating the ice cream with a little tongue poking out. And we were all like a combination of it's just the absolute gratitude for how much she was loved and how much she had loved her family. Um, and I remember this uh other little uh Staffi, um, she loved steak. So her family had made her prime what's what's it called when you have like the like the scotch fillet or the Yeah, it was like like the best cut of of of uh scotch fillet steak with and it was cut it was medium rare and they had it in a warmed bowl with um you know the uh alpha on top to keep the temperature right and they had it in her sun bed out in the garden in her favourite spot with her family there. Um and you know, they they gave her the meat and I was giving her the medic giving her the medicine. I'd say nine out of ten are like they don't even notice. Um a lot of the family go, oh where are you gonna give that medicine? Oh, you've already given it? Yeah, you know. Yep, we were very focused on the yummy stuff. And I remember she was she was just like falling asleep, and usually when they fall asleep and and lie down, like that's that's pretty much it. And one of her m one of her family said, We forgot the beer. Bolted to get this beer, came back, cracked the minute he cracked the thing, right? She sat bolt upright again. I couldn't believe my eyes. She was so grateful for this like little thing of beer that they gave her. She probably would have had, I don't know, maybe 20 mils of beer, and then she fell asleep literally with a smile on her face in the sun on her bed with her family, and everybody was laughing and crying just because she's been such a joy, you know. And I love that. I hope the one day that my family feels, you know, like that where we have that that moment to share of just love and joy, you know, loved our time together so much. Thank you for being you.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

But can you even imagine the excitement of them giving her that steak so they're all happy and going, I know she loves this, I know she loves this, and then the beer. Can you see how the animal would thrive on that? Because the happiness, the joy that I'm used to, they're so happy, everything's for from even their perspective, they can remember back on that. I mean, I love that story. I mean, I'm going to tell that story to so many people, you have no idea. But it it's it's just the most beautiful thing. So, and this is why uh, and I wanted to get you on the podcast, because I think people need to understand what's available, what they can do for their animal, um, the stories, what the animal really thinks, because our aim is to relieve them, ease the grief, and bring back the celebration and the and the happiness, you know? Yes. So if somebody, because they're not all going to be in WA where you are, they probably all want to be now, but you know, we have to, you know, it's a cross as our cross to bear. But if they are somewhere else, and how do they go about choosing uh I mean, obviously they can ask their regular vet if the vet does it, who's known this animal for, you know, 10, 20, you know, 15 years. But what do they do if they if their vet doesn't, because not every vet does. So what do they do if they're looking for an in-home euthanasia vet? What what what should they what should they look for? What should they ask? Um, what you know, how how can they, because they want to be reassured they're getting something that you're describing. What what how could they what would they do?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

A good place to start would be um remember, no matter how much data you you collect, trust your gut instinct before you make your decision. Um, I I think it's best to talk with the vet, but also like to get a sense of who they are and like does their does their values and their focus match yours? So I am uh admittedly quite fluffy. Um for me, the VIP is the one and only focus that I have. I know I look after them, everybody else is looked after anyway, by default. Um, but you know, that can be a little bit too fluffy and flowery for some people, which is that's okay. So some people prefer to have the more sort of like come in the white coat with the stethoscope and you know, go with what is going to create the most joy um when you look back, and peace when you look back. And people are like, Joy? How can you get joy out of this? But when you have peace, it it opens up that um the possibility or that bridge where you have a memory that creates peace and joy when you think of them. I I hope one day that my kids think of me and it gives them a sense of peace and joy. I said to them if you guys, if you if you guys have your bad emotions attached to me, like bad, sad, mad, all that stuff, I will come back to haunt you. Like, I roll, mom, don't say that, you know. But but I I I I feel that possibly this would be something that they would want for us as well. Um so so a big thing is around what other people's experiences have been as two, like so. Um I'd say the most common feedback that I get is should I feel bad that I don't feel bad? But I'm like, now I've kept my promise to their fairy person or their feathered person, and um that that's exactly what they would want, you know, that connection feeling, the gratitude of the time we've had together, the feeling of peace and love. Um, so they want to keep being remembered, you know, by you or you remembering them.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Um and how they want to be remembered isn't is another topic. But even on that topic of saying how do we, you know, choose an in-home um vet for this for this particular situation, um, also there's things you there's the afterthings. There's going to be people that want to, you know, do the natural burial for their animal or they might want to cremate or because that's sort of in your wheelhouse as well, but maybe not every in-home vet, like to help with that.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah. My my love language is service. So if I can help uh in some way make it like ease, ease the burden of the mental load, um, uh, I will. So there are companies in Perth that allow me to do most of the organizing. So I'll organize, or I'll copy paste the data with their permission of the family's permission, um, and and send that to the aftercare team that they chose. And I'll say, this is where we're gonna be, this is uh when we need you there. If they can't be there at that time, say they're booked out already, um, I can take their little one with me or big person with me, um, that that's that's all good. And I will make sure that um that they're looked after so that usually the aftercare companies will come to me. I've got everything set up like a like a vet practice at home so they're snug as a bug in a rug with me. Um uh yeah, so these are really good points, and and also um when it comes to choosing a vet, I think go go with uh referrals from others. Like what is the basic experience of the people who have seen them already? Um and you know, people are gonna have good and bad days, but what is the overall feeling? Um, my process is different from um the traditional process that I was taught, mainly because I'm so OCD about making sure that I preserve the experience for the furry person. Um, so I don't do anything with arms and legs. Um I just give them that one under the skin while they're like like a normal vaccine, while they're usually from my experience, it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

It it was a wonderful experience because I have to say, before I met you, because you know, I'm not a spring chicken, so I've had other animals and I've had other experiences, and I personally have not had the great experiences before that I had with you, and that's why I'm bringing this up because it's not all equal, these experiences. Even today, I've had clients that have said I went ahead and did that, and it it's just shaken me. So, we you do need to do some homework, you do need to check that person, trust your gut. And I I there's two things I wanted to say to you. Firstly, was I think you should write a book. Uh, personally, I think you should write a book, and then we'll we'll we'll put that out there about this and your experiences and your view. But I also think you need to think about a training program or a training protocol that you use for other vets, because I ramble on about to my clients who are everywhere around the world and around Australia, but they'll I'll ramble on about my experience and they'll say, Oh, so is that what'll happen? I said, Well, I'm not sure what your particular choice is going to do, and that's the problem because it's some of them do do things in the arms and legs, and it hasn't been great. So the reason I say that is that maybe that's something you could develop so that um perhaps other vets who haven't thought of it or don't know about it might be able to run through that experience. I think it's really important because I get the aftermath in the Rainbow Bridge readings afterwards that said I never want to go through that again, and I just feel for them and my heart drops, and yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah, Trisha, yeah, I have had a family say that to me before because I helped with one fairy person, like her, it was her husband's cat. So went through that process with him, and then um something happened with her dog two years later. She went with uh another mobile vet thinking this is the process, and uh a year after that, um I I met her again and she was like literally crying because she had had she said the the vet was beautiful, the vet did great, like it was it was peaceful. She said, but I felt robbed because the process didn't give me that sense of peace and connection. With my little one. So I I thought it was going to be like this experience, but then all of a sudden it was done, and and I I I feel like I didn't get the experience that I craved that I needed to have to be connected. And she was crying with me out in the car, but she had referred me to her cousin. And so she was there with her cousin's little one when I did the home appointment. She said, please, please, would you do something so other vets can have a choice of doing it the way that you do it if that's what the family wants.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I agree. And that's why I'm saying I've been thinking about this for a while, because everybody, all my clients now want the you know, Dr. Ann, and unfortunately, you know, you'd have to fly everywhere. Um, but it's it's what they want. So maybe it's something perhaps you could think about because honestly, that's not been my experience previously. And um once now that I've had your experience, I'm going, well, I would never go under that now. I I just can't because I've not I'm not saying that sometimes the body doesn't react and you get a moan or a groan. I'm sure it's happened with you, but it hasn't happened with any of my animals with you. So I can only go on the experience I've had with you. It it hasn't happened. So and and sometimes it's just a bodily function, I understand that, but it's just that all I mean, three in a row I had with you.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, nothing the the distinction, the distinction, Trisha, is that once they get that first medicine under the skin, now they're not just having a snooze, they're anathetized. What does that mean? We could do surgery, yeah, but they wouldn't know, right? So they already have their peace at that point, and the families that go through the process with me, they understand that from this point on, everything from here on, it's body mechanics, it's it's not their baby, right? Their baby's already at peace.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

So you are putting in general anesthetic or a type of anesthetic.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

And I just want to point that out because that can be a question somebody can ask to that vet. Do you do you do you do it this way? Or is it and and I've actually clarified that with many of my clients, and they've come back and said, Oh, it's sedative, sedative. And I said, Well, look, I've had the sedative before and it didn't work for me. I'm just saying, um, I I I still remember a couple of those, and I, you know, that would bring me to tears, so I won't talk about that. Yeah, you know, I can't do it. Um, because I just and and and I'm not blame because you know, this was many years ago, maybe they just didn't do it that way and then, but we've got now. I'm talking about now. So I would love to put that out there and let them let people know and they can ask about it because it's a whole different experience. And Dr. Ann needs to get out there and train everybody up so that they understand why that works through all of your experience. The other thing I wanted to ask, and I'm not sure what you're gonna answer for this, is gonna be, but during the transition right, of these animals, what sort of have you had any unusual experiences with the transitions?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I have um sometimes myself personally, uh I've just on the odd occasion thought of you because I get this sense of like this little person being free, la, yay! Um, but that's just in my own experience. Um typically uh the experience that I would refer to right now would be in like maybe their furry family around them or feathered. I remember um Missy the dog, she was a shih tzu and she was Frenemies with Fred uh the weirdo. He was king of the sky, she was the queen of the of the house, and you know, frenemies is the word. Fred did not like to be touched, um, uh and everything was his. So um when I gave um Missy her first medicine, Fred came to be with us because he was a free-flying bird. And the family were like, Oh, Fred, he must have got a bit discombobulated. We'll we'll put him back with his and he had a Taj Mahal, so they took him back to his Taj Mahal. Immediately he flew back, he had to be there. He landed on his mum's shoulder. This is Mr. Can't Touch This, right? Landed on his mum's shoulder and he sat there and she's looking at me like is Fred okay? You know, and I said, I think he just wants to be here, so if you're okay with it, she goes, Yeah, I'm yeah, wow, okay. I it would have been around about 10 seconds after um after I had said to the family, Missy's about to go over the Rainbow Bridge now. Um, Fred was like right, well, this is not my missy, and he flew off. Like 10 seconds later, we all, the whole family, we looked at each other like, wow. You guys saw that too. You you guys saw that too, right? And that uh so Fred was the person who taught me that animals just know. Oh, they're like, oh, okay then. Well, yeah, it's it we're like nothing, no, no one to see here, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

So Well also animals uh yeah, animals do know, but also birds, things with wings and flight are often used afterwards to for signs that it's their animal or their person that's just passed. It's it's often with birds or butterflies or a dragonfly. It's always with wings, how poignant. Angels, I guess. But it's it's very yeah, so it's often, and they're I've heard of a case where there was a s uh father and the daughter, they just lost her mother and his wife, and it was devastating, it was quite sudden, and they were at the burial ground, and they were actually, you know, at the site. This bird, wild bird came and landed on his shoulder for the whole time, and as soon as it was done, he if the bird flew off. Goosebumps. Yes, goosebumps, right? So it's off it it's often, but it happens with animals as well. So there will be other animals and there's other phenomena which you know at some point we we will go through. But what I was also going to ask, and I get asked this, I'm just wondering how you answer it, is when the people who are, you know, getting you over in home, when they say, is it okay if the other animals are there or should I put them away? Or is it okay also for my kids to you know be off school and have them there because of that? What what do you answer to that? Such a good question.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Um and really important, I I think they should both parties should have a choice. Um, I now the the number one person is our VIP. So let's just say the VIP uh is uh somebody who's really, really, really old, very rickety, and the um other furry family might be like uh uh an eight-month-old puppy who's just like all over, like not peaceful for this dear little old soul. So I would say go number one priority is whatever creates the most peace for the person who's the VIP that we're taking over the Rainbow Bridge. Okay, so whatever creates peace for them. Sometimes they actually want to have everybody there, that's more peaceful for them. So uh in that case, I would you know do that. Um when it comes to to the human side of things, um, I've had rooms with over 30 people, because the whole family and their family's family came. And I've had um very sort of sacred, quiet, just uh actually sometimes just me and them, but like the family don't even want to be there. And I that's a tricky one. Um but um I think with with children, if they're little babies, uh some because the little babies typically don't they they're not gonna be like really showing the effect. Sometimes, especially if the fairy person is via is is the baby number one, like they were the first baby before they had the babies. Yeah. So I think sometimes within those situations, and this is again a trust yourself, go with your gut instinct on what would be the most peaceful thing for you to remember, because that's basically what's most peaceful for your third person, too, right? So if they just need to be with you and not have other people there, then then do that. Um, but I think if the kids are like um old enough to really make a stand and say, I need to be there, then I think it's really important that that their voice is heard and honored. And I think um Dr. Garbo, G-A-B-O-T, um, he talks about trauma in kids basically coming from when they not so much the experience like like the thing that happened, but them feeling alone in that. And sometimes feeling alone is like feeling unheard. So if the if the child says, I really have to be there, then I myself personally I am totally okay with them being there.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

And and um I think it's that's kind of the advice that I've given. But if they're really young children, I said you've got to assess what effect it'll have on them. So I go through your process, and hopefully that their process goes like that, um, so that the parent can understand what it's gonna look like, what it's gonna be like, and how they think their child's going to react. I said sometimes it's better for them to have remembered their last moments with you know the night before they were eating, playing with them, or whatever else, and then this side of it may not be something they need to deal with. But it's a very individual thing, like you're saying, and I always say to the parents, you you know your children better than me. It's got to be something that, you know, it's not traumatizing, and if they're not ready for it, it can be traumatizing. So it if yeah, but if they there's been children that have said, I just want to be there, then you need to let them be there because that's their process, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

I was gonna say it. I remember a little boy who couldn't be there because he didn't want to be there, but he made little he knew what the treats were that were the favorites, and he made little love heart, love heart-shaped cheese blocks and and and star-shaped cheese blocks and stuff. And so we took photos of that being demolished, you know. Another little boy who just had to be there and video everything and take photos of everything. Um it yeah, I I think also I so sometimes when kids want to be there, I think it's another great um legacy of our VIP that this is a place where the family can teach the children how to grieve with gratitude, not grieving with self-def destruction. So some people are like, oh, I should be feeling bad in order to be a good person. No, I would not want my children to feel bad. You know, I know that they're good. I know that they're that they love me. There's love between us, and I I reckon our furry family feel the same. Hey. Yeah, but hang on a minute.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

There's cult there's cultures around the world that don't dress in black and have this somber, it's it's a it's sort of a culture. Yeah, they have a week-long party and everyone's dressed in bright colours and they sing and they dance. So everybody's ex yeah, everybody's experience is different. Is it celebration? Is it somber? You decide, but don't decide for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, and and I I think that there's that skill set around, you know, when when your heart drops, when you miss them and you feel sad, and then like being able to teach a child, you know, oh, do you remember that thing that?