Are We Getting Horses Completely Wrong?

🌿 Episode Description

In this episode of Animal Talk with Trisha McCagh, we’re joined by Dr. Raquel Butler—veterinarian, educator, and advocate for equine wellbeing.

We explore equine biomechanics and how many “behaviour problems” in horses are often linked to physical discomfort. Dr. Raquel shares how working with challenging horses led her to understand the role of posture, movement, and physiology in overall wellbeing.

Horses communicate constantly through their bodies—how they stand, move, graze, and rest. We discuss functional posture and why there is no one-size-fits-all approach. Every horse is unique, and recognising this can greatly improve comfort, performance, and quality of life.

We also cover preparation, including warm-up and cool-down routines, and how even short targeted exercises can make a big difference. A key focus is the nervous system—horses need time to integrate new movement patterns for lasting change.

🐾 Episode Highlights

• Behaviour issues in horses often stem from physical causes
• Posture and movement reveal internal wellbeing
• What functional posture means for each horse
• How disciplines impact the body differently
• Why warm-up and cool-down are essential
• Small exercises can create big change
• The nervous system’s role in learning movement
• Key posture signals to observe daily
• Veronica the cow and animal intelligence

🐶 Key Takeaways

• Every horse is individual—no universal solution
• The body is always communicating
• Observation is a powerful tool
• Preparation and recovery matter as much as training
• Horses need time to integrate change
• Small adjustments prevent long-term issues
• Animal intelligence is often underestimated
• Nature offers lessons in balance and sustainability

⏱️ Episode Chapters

00:00 – Introduction to Dr. Raquel Butler
 01:45 – From difficult horses to biomechanics
 04:43 – Misunderstanding horse behaviour
 06:43 – Functional posture explained
 10:12 – Discipline and physical impact
 13:24 – Importance of preparation
 16:32 – Warm-up and cool-down
 18:56 – Small exercises, big results
 22:13 – Observing posture daily
 26:16 – Real-world examples
 28:30 – Nervous system and learning
 31:24 – Integration of movement
 32:59 – Wrap-up & Part 2 preview

🐾 Animal News

This week we feature Veronica, a cow from Austria who gained global attention after being seen using a broom to scratch herself. She adjusted it to reach different areas, showing clear problem-solving ability.

Scientists debate whether this qualifies as tool use, but the deeper question is why such behaviour still surprises us. From her perspective, it’s simply practical intelligence.

The story raises broader questions about how we define intelligence. Animals consistently show awareness and adaptability, yet we often measure them against human standards.

It also highlights contrast in living systems—animals tend to operate in balance with nature, while humans often overconsume and generate waste. There is much we can learn from observing the natural world more closely.

👤 About the Guest

Dr. Raquel Butler is a veterinarian specialising in equine biomechanics and functional posture. Her work focuses on movement, anatomy, and rehabilitation to improve horse comfort and performance.

She provides practical tools to help owners better understand their horses and build stronger, more informed connections.https://www.integratedvettherapeutics.com/

🔮 Coming Up in Part 2

Can a horse's posture reveal what they're feeling emotionally?

In Part 2, Dr. Raquel Butler explains the powerful links between movement, behaviour, and emotional wellbeing. We uncover the body language cues many owners miss, discuss how horses communicate through subtle physical changes, and explore ways to develop a deeper, more intuitive partnership with your horse.

Plus, we'll look at how greater awareness can help you build trust, improve communication, and better understand the horse standing right in front of you.

🎧 Listen, Share & Stay Connected

If this episode resonated, follow, subscribe, and share Animal Talk with Trisha McCagh with fellow horse lovers.

Your support helps bring these conversations to more people and improves outcomes for animals everywhere.

🏷️ Hashtags
 #AnimalTalk #HorseBiomechanics #EquineWellbeing #HorseHealth #EquineEducation #AnimalCommunication #DrRaquelButler #AnimalIntelligence #VeronicaTheCow #AnimalNews #HorseBehaviour #MindfulHorsemanship #EquineScience #AnimalWelfare

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Today on Animal Talk with Trisha McKay, we're joined by the incredible Dr. Raquel Butler, veterinarian, educator, and passionate advocate for animal well-being. Dr. Raquel brings a wealth of clinical experience along with a deeply compassionate approach to equine biomechanics. In this episode, we explore her insights into horse posture, body language, and physiology, and how their guardians can better understand what their horses truly need physically, emotionally, and way beyond. Hi, Dr. Raquel. You're only Raquel to me, but you are a Dr. Raquel, most definitely. And I am so privileged to have you on the show today because it's going to be everything horses. Don't you love that? So there's gonna be a lot of keen people out there to hear what you have to say. So thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Thanks, Trisha. Yeah, I'm so grateful to be here. It's very exciting. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Oh, I can't wait to get started. And as usual, I have a mountain of questions. So please bear with me and meticulously get through them because really horses are a huge subject. And to me, could be one of them in the category, one of the most misunderstood animals on the planet. And I can't wait to get some clarity around that. Uh, particularly, we're talking about today, well, physically, and a few other things, um, because in your work, and you do amazing work with horses. You and I have known each other for a while, and we're kind of on the same page with the health and well-being, uh, and and also that horses are very different animals to other animals that we have in our lives. So I can't wait to get started. Now, what I want to know is um what sort of got you into equine biomechanics and realizing there was a need for it?

SPEAKER_05 1:55

Yeah, um, it's a good question. So, really, it came right back to when I had my own horses, like from the beginning. I always had really difficult horses. So I had horses that bucked, horses that reared, horses that laid down when you put the girth on them, uh, horses that took off, and and you know, had my fair share of fools like everyone else. And I was always told that it was a a behaviour problem, um, and that I needed to, you know, work on their training kind of aspects. And I just didn't know any different. I didn't have anyone in my life to, you know, really explain to me what was happening with my horses. So I s you know, I started to wonder back then when I was quite young. And then I met a vet called Dr. Ian Bidstrup, who is um very well known in Australia. He's a chiropractic vet, and I think the original chiropractic vet in Australia, and he, you know, watched a horse walk out and said, Okay, that's all I need to see. And I said to him, What do you mean? Like the only way we can look at lameness is if we watch the horse trot. And he said, No, we can observe the a lot from the walk. And from that moment, which I was still a vet student at that point, I I thought, okay, this is what I want to do. And then I met uh Shermay Davis a few years later after I'd already started Bowen Therapy, and she watched the horse walk and said that she saw all of these things from the horse walking, and I and I said to her, You can really see all of that from just watching the horse walk. And I did the masterclass with her, and I was blown away. And from that point, I thought, gosh, there's so much I don't know. And then I did a dissection and with her, and then I just went down the rabbit hole with her, and she was she's really mentored me a lot along the way, and and I've had my own journey now with my own horses who motivate me every day. So yeah, it's been quite a journey to get to this place in my life.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I I I get very excited about this. Like, yeah, there were things that you just didn't even know, even as a vet, it was something that was so clear to you, and how you could help horses have a better life, but also just functionality with the person that it's so many avenues because let's be honest, horses aren't the same as dogs and cats, and I don't mean just physiologically, we have a different relationship with horses than you do with dog and cat dogs and cats. So we work with horses, we have um careers with horses, it's a very different relationship, and and horses are doing very different functions and very different things. So this biomechanics obviously opened your eyes to hang on a minute, all these questions that would have been swinging through and are now being answered, because what you brought up was something very, very interesting. I met a person who was studying um canine rehab, dog rehab. And she said, What she was interesting to her, and I said, Oh, I'd love to have you where I am, because you know she was in a different state in Australia, she was in Melbourne. And I said to her, We'd great to have you. She goes, Well, it doesn't matter where I am. And I said, What for rehab? What you can just sort of generalize. She goes, No, no, you send me a video of the dog walking.

SPEAKER_05 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

And she's doing the same thing. And she goes, We get miraculous results from that. Well, that just blew me away at the time. And I went, What? You can tell. She goes, Oh, yeah. So I had a problem with my dog and I sent it to her. She goes, Oh, I can tell you right here and now what you need to do there. It worked. And I'm not saying dogs don't get injuries and stuff like that, but it's not quite to the same caliber that we're talking horses. Because there's a lot of consults I do where, well, the horse is not doing this, or the horse, well, it's always a horse's fault. A lot of the time that that's other people say. We'll talk about that too. But what I mean is that I am constantly picking up, you know, with medical intuitives and things like that, constantly picking up biomechanics, physical stuff that's that's going on for the horse. So they seem to be an animal that's quite uh troubled in this area. So I can't wait to get into this a bit more. Now for someone new to your work, how would you explain functional uh posture in simple simple terms of the horse?

SPEAKER_05 6:27

For me, functional posture is working with the individual to optimize their motion, you know. So it's not working towards an ideal motion, you know, like it's not getting them walking in a specific way. It's what is optimal for that horse. So each horse has their own pathologies, they've had their own injuries, they're at, you know, doing whatever discipline they do, they have their posture, and then it's working with that to make and help them be as functional as they possibly can. So sometimes it's a it's a functional dysfunction because some of them their bones are set in certain ways because of what they've dealt with throughout their life. So we're not going to fix a broken wither, but we can definitely get that fractured wither comfortable and get that horse comfortable. So yeah, it's optimizing their comfort and their individual function and their overall posture, which will transpire in their paddock posture. So it's not just a working posture, it's a whole life change in their posture.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

I I love the fact that it's individual. Because, you know, there's a lot of treatments and things that are very one size fits all, and we all know that that's not possible. I've got an entirely different shape to somebody else's height difference, uh, muscle depth, muscle strength, uh flexibility. I mean, let's let's just keep going on and on and on. But I, you know, that's why sometimes you get people in athletics, you know, like in the Olympics, and they'll they'll make a comment this person is structurally built and perfectly functional for this particular sport, you know, whether it's aerial jumping or whatever it is. So there's individuality in us, and the same as in horses, and I love the fact that you're addressing that. I think I think that's something that people need to realise that it's not all it isn't a one-size-fit-doll, that your horse may have really specific things that need to be looked at specifically to make them function at their best.

SPEAKER_05 8:43

Yeah, and it can be challenging because often we determine what our horse does, you know. So w we decide they're going to be a dressage horse or a jumping horse or an eventing horse or a trail riding horse. And so then we are expecting their body to be able to deal with that. And not all horses are built to do that, so they're not all, you know, created to suit that discipline, whether it's physically or mentally, emotionally. And so I think we have to be mindful in that too, in that they often don't get a choice in a lot of that. And it doesn't always be them. So we have to work with them the best way we can.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

But with those disciplines, can I just ask you if you've seen over your extensive years of experience, in in those different disciplines, do you notice more postural problems or more physical problems in some of those disciplines than others? And what would they be?

SPEAKER_05 9:48

Uh, I think I mean I tend to work a lot more with pleasure horses these days. So I've kind of gone away from the competition horses. But, you know, when I see high-level Olympic horses, uh, they're often quite dysfunctional and they're competing at quite a high level. But when you look at them from a postural perspective, they often have a very weak top line or they're lacking muscle development through key areas that would be considered key areas for strength. And so I think overall we're kind of improving in those areas, but I also think one of the disciplines that goes under the radar a fair bit are the Western disciplines. You know, it's a pretty hard work for the horses, and they're often doing sharp turns, sharp stops, you know, quick and sudden movement.

SPEAKER_04 10:40

Do you do you mean like barrel racing and things like that?

SPEAKER_05 10:44

Barrel racing and raining and um and camp drafting, they're often standing around all day, and then they go out and do their run, and that is very challenging for horses. The same with polo, you know, where they're getting pulled around, um, quick, sharp movements, and they're often not warmed up, and they're expected to be very athletic. And gosh, we if we do that, especially as you get a bit older, we will Yeah, like it's it's a challenge, right? And a lot of horses then don't last very long, or they shut down and switch off, and so we don't actually realise how much their body is being challenged by that.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

So I'm I'm gonna be I'll be yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

They go under the radar.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Yeah. I've actually seen with a couple of those particular disciplines we were just mentioning, I've you can actually see it in the horse. They actually have a different way of standing, different body shape, and those horses don't have a lot of good things to say about it because it is very challenging. And even if they have a great relationship with their person and they want to do all this, that's that's great. But do we have to do that? You know, because it's it is so challenging. I I'm you know, I'm getting on in my years and I love exercise, I thrive on it.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

But I find now, yeah, yeah, but I find now, I you know, I mean I've always had to, but I have to warm up.

SPEAKER_05 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

I'm I'm so seriously, I will get an injury and I have when I've gone, oh, it'll be okay today. It's not. And I'll get an injury and it'll put you out for weeks. And that's okay for me because that's my decision. But then we'll need to discuss this too. But sometimes with people, they still want to have their agenda, even if the horse really shouldn't be doing it, because I physically know that if I kept going, I'm gonna really cause a serious injury. So I have to stop and I have to go to your physionica or you know, all of all of your different uh modalities and get sort of sorted out. So that's why my mixture is I do some quite heavy gym stuff and full-on cardio and things like that, but then I balance it through the week with Pilates and stretching and yin yoga so that my body can take it. And when I get the combination right, I can tell you, Raquel, it works beautifully for me. And people go, Oh, how fit you are, you know. Yeah, because I've worked it out, and that's obviously what you're saying needs to also be done with horses. Because they're just athletes the same as a person.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Yeah, and we get really caught up with horses doing the same things, you know, all the time. Whatever is easier for us, if you have an arena, then you often work in the arena. If you, you know, you you've got a jumping horse, then you often jump. And unfortunately, that's not the best way to keep horses functional because horses are made for variation. Like if they were in the doing their own thing, you know, they're doing different things every day, and they're grazing in different positions and they're doing a lot of movement, and they're going over varying terrains, and we keep them generally in the same paddocks, and we'd often do the same exercise. And so the more that we, no matter what discipline you choose, the more you can vary that workload in a controlled manner, like what you said with your exercise, you know what works for you, and you figured it out. So we can do that for our individual horses. Like, what do they need before work that will optimize my work session? What do they need during that work session that can help them activate the right muscles or help them get into a better functional posture for them? And then what do they need post-work so that we can leave them in the best possible state so that next time that they work their bodies are they've recovered really well. And then how often do we do those work sessions and what type of work sessions do we do rather than just doing the same thing all the time or you know, working them seven days a week or even five days a week? Horses are amazing athletes, they are able to stay fit so much better than we can. We lose fitness in a couple of weeks. They don't lose fitness for like six to eight weeks cardiovascular. So they have such like they're made for athleticism, but we need to look after that.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

To have a practitioner like you or someone that you've trained is going to be absolutely amazing. Is that all we need? Uh do we need, you know, somebody that does what you do, or do we need some other things as well? Or because I I know from a lot of my clients, um it's not so much that they're big competition people, they do do some competition. They've ridden horses, but they don't actually exercise, so they don't know about the warm-up and cool down even themselves. And they probably don't do it for themselves, by the way, which they should. We could talk about that. We'll get we'll we'll get someone on to do the human stuff. But um, you know, because they're sitting in a saddle and they're do and it's quite athletic as well. A lot of people have the horses on their property. Yes, some of them don't, they gist, and then they're time poor, so they rush over there and then they just pull themselves and the horse into something that they wanted to do today, and then pop the horse back, and then that's it. And that and that's a lot of the time. So it's really interesting what you're saying about warm-up, cool down, we can call it that, um, purely because it's an easy way of remembering because you would have been told at some time in your human life. So is is it the same for every discipline, regardless of what it is, what we can do, or do we have to modify it according to where the stress areas are going to be in that discipline?

SPEAKER_05 16:43

I think it's more modifying for the individual horse uh rather than the discipline. So, yes, obviously you want, you know, if you're going to do a lot of dressage, you want a horse that's strong behind, but most disciplines really require that. Uh, if you're going to do jumping, you want a horse with good proprioception, so they know where their legs are, they know where their body is, so they look after you as well as themselves. But really, you need to understand your horse better. So if you can, you know, one of the things that we teach in the equine functional posture course is being able to observe your horse's posture. So you can empower yourself with skills to recognize when your horse is not standing right and to actually improve that. Like it doesn't take much to, you know, I know everyone is time poor these days, but it's amazing through the course the changes that we see when people have only been doing like five or ten minutes a day and not even a day. Like some people have only done it three or four times a week, but it's being specific with those exercises for that individual. So thinking, okay, my horse needs to activate more in the hind end, you know, so I'm going to learn how to do tail activations, or my horse needs to get more activity, you know, through their belly lift. So we're going to make sure that I do that correctly for my horse until this point. So, you know, and it only has to be a couple of exercises. Like my, you know, warm-up for my horse would take me, you know, well, it depends, because then I just kind of morph into work anyway, but it would take like less than five minutes. And then my cooldown's less than five minutes. So it's not a very long period of time. It can be done so easily, and it's more about targeting the exercises. And as we get towards the end of our course, we're always like, okay, you have a lot of tools now. You're gonna figure out like what are the th you know, minimum, just three key things are you gonna do with your horse before any work? And what are the three key things you're gonna do with your horse after any work that works for your horse? And they have a toolbox of you know 30 things by then. So they're just picking a few.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

But these these tools you're giving people, it's an investment to me. Yes. It's a it's it actually is going to take all right, let's just be put it out, it's going to save you time and money. Those few minutes could save you weeks. It's amazing that it's including yourself, because if you well, if you're doing that on your horse, you're gonna educate yourself, aren't you? So maybe I need to be doing not what the horse is doing, but my own stuff, right? So and then so it's an investment. And if you want to stay in competition, I was just listening to these athletes at the recent Olympics, you know, you're listening to them having interviews. They train and they are so well, they talk about their preparation. Oh, my preparation wasn't very good, so it's not surprising this happened, but my preparation was fantastic. I expected this. Now I'm looking at the horse going, what is your preparation? You are doing this highly athletic thing, skills that you have to learn too. It's not just about you learning and you show the horse and the horse has got to remember. They're all different too, how they remember, how they relate to things. So, what's your preparation? You're talking about the preparation. Without the preparation, how can you expect a great result?

SPEAKER_05 20:18

And it's knowing that your horse is prepared. Like, like, what does that even mean for your individual horse? You know, obviously it depends what you want them to do. But I have a horse with a muscle condition and he has myofibrillomyopathy, and if I don't prepare him properly, I'm gonna get him to a place and his muscles are gonna look terrible and he is gonna feel terrible, and I'm not gonna enjoy the day, he's not gonna enjoy the day. And so, like, if he's not fit enough, then I can't take him. And that's just the way it is, because of his muscle condition, or if I get there and his muscles look bad, or he's not eating, because I need him to eat to look after his muscles, if he's not eating, I've got to do something. Like, I've had to syringe the supplements into him because otherwise his muscles will just look so bad. So it's really knowing, again, it comes back to your individual, like what do they need to be prepared, and then what are you preparing them for? Because yeah, preparing for a hundred and sixty kilometer endurance ride is gonna be very different to preparing for um, you know, HRCAV adult riding three-phase equitation, like for the goes for a day. It's gonna it's very different preparation there.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

I'm gonna come back to your your course because I want to know uh uh quite a lot more about that. What are the most common postural issues? So it's that you know, that you you're looking at your horse. What are you what are you looking for to see how they're faring?

SPEAKER_05 21:49

I can even see their shadow in the dark and know if they're standing okay or not. But I'm looking for how do they just stand when they're standing there resting? You know, so are they Are they square? Do they rest their back legs evenly or do they always rest one back leg more than the other? I am looking to see how they urinate. Do they look comfortable when they urinate? Do do they tip up on one tote? Or does it seem to be an effort? Or are their front legs split? I'm looking for how they defecate. You know, do they put their back legs like jelly with his muscle condition? Sometimes his front legs are way underneath him and his back legs are very wide and then he groans and I know, oh, his lumber's a bit tight today. And and then I look at how they graze, you know, so d are they able to graze square, which most horses can't, but that's what we're aiming towards, that they're able to graze square, like eating on the ground, square, or either front leg forward. So when I've watched the wild horses, I got to see the conics in the Netherlands, they didn't have a preferential grazing stance. So they didn't always select right front forward. They would have a little they basically walk and graze, so it was either one, and it wasn't a big distance between the front legs, and their whole body kind of flowed in that grazing, and then they'd just sometimes be square, and then they go over and have little brows and put their head up, and they had rotation through their upper neck, and so you're looking for those things. So urination, defecation, grazing postures, and when they're just standing around and resting, and then you have to learn what am I actually looking for in those postures? And that's where you you know, people in the course, like when I say to them, How does your horse stand in the paddock? They're like, Oh, I haven't really, I don't, I don't know. You know, so and then all of a sudden they're telling me about the little my clients will tell me, Oh, who are standing square. And then I just noticed that the right front foot has been forward for the last week. And so only through observation can you really help your horse more. And we often don't realise we don't have the observation skills until until we develop them, and then they're like, Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't see that before.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

But it's just some skill Yeah, but it but it's yeah, but it's interesting because if we go to dogs, right? Um I know of someone who their dog is sort of getting elderly, and um they go to a person who is the biomechanics for dogs. I I was just amazed because this dog kept getting UTIs and I was picking that up, and you know, we were knowing about that. But what was interesting was this person picked up and said, How does he urinate?

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

And of course, the the person who's guardian said, uh, well, just I think normally she, and then the person said, Yeah, but is it more forward? Or actually, he is doing that. She goes, That's why he's getting UTIs, because he has a back problem, which is limiting his flexibility, which now he's compensating for, which now is causing the UTI. We were just sitting there going, Are you kidding me? And you're saying exactly like something so simple. And she and and and and this friend said to me, I never thought to look at that. I said, I now have got another tool in my little toolkit because and what it can cause, because of course you you you your urethra is tipped when you're urinating and you the bacteria and it goes into the bladder, and there's a whole because of the flushing system. Like I I there's so much mechanics in it that we we won't go into here because it might not mean much to people. But the but the bottom line is it was not a normal position, and when you've got something slightly compromised, you're going to get a compromised result.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

That's really what what we're saying, right? And what you're saying, because it starts by just looking at them. And I I love what you're saying because even in my early days, I would be, I was walking around a paddock waiting for some people in uh in Tasmania. I was running a horse, well, a clinic, but we had horses there. So uh in communication. And anyway, these horses, I was just walking through, loving it. They had goats and you know, all sorts of farm animals, and I I just loved it. I was just walking through the paddock, enjoying the moment, and this horse turned his back on me and then flipped onto one leg. Right? And I looked at him and I went, Oh, I'm getting drawn. My energy is, you know, was drawn there. Because this was quite a long time ago in my early stages, and it was really interesting because then the horse turned its head around and looked directly at me. It's like he's teaching me when we when we do this, there's a problem.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

We need you to have a look here.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Yeah, so please listen to your intuition. I was drawn there, and there's a reason, and then he turned more and more, and another horse did it, and I went, okay, got the message. Thank you. And we brought that up in the clinic. So the horse actually does speak to you. Animals are speaking to you all the time. We're just not watching or we're not listening. I mean, you and I are because you know we're geared for that. But I'm saying generally the public are not, and you need to be because you know what? They're actually saying stuff to you all the time or showing you or doing something. Yeah, so that's that's amazing. So, so these horses will be compensating, which eventually will lead to an imbalance. Eventually, right? So, and that's when problems can occur down the line. So, if we can stop them as early as we notice them, it's going to be a lot easier to get their biomechanics back in order.

SPEAKER_05 27:37

Their nervous system can you give their nervous system an opportunity to recognise the difference. So if we don't do that, they don't necessarily feel the difference. And so then it doesn't become a new movement pattern for them. And so that's really important that the whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

So, what are you saying about the nervous system? Are you saying that it uh it takes a period of time or repetition? What do you what do you mean by allowing the nervous system?

SPEAKER_05 28:07

It's not necessarily time or repetition, it's more that in the moment of showing them a new movement pattern, we have to do it in a slow enough and a c and a controlled enough manner that their neurological pathways can go, oh, that feels different. And the feedback to their brain, like there's enough time for their nervous system to process what is happening. And often we're busy and we're like, Okay, we've done that, yep, we've done that, we've done that, we've done that, all right, we've done our shouldering, we've done our travail, we've done our transitions, but the horse's body may not have recognized there was a difference there. And so what I like to see is when a horse does a different step to what they normally do. So, say a horse, I'm asking the forelimb um to lift through the shoulder and and lift up and across in front of the body. And a lot of horses will not lift the shoulder, so they'll step in front of the body, but they're not really using their thoracic sling and and transferring the weight. And so we do it in a manner where you ask, you wait, so you uh you give them the cue, you set them up in the right position, so they're you're setting them up for success. They then take this step, which was different to every other step that they did before because they've just activated their shoulder. You let them finish that step off, and then you give them a moment and you see what response you get. If the horse is like, uh, yeah, see, I'm just gonna eat grass, well, there probably wasn't a recognition in their nervous system that anything happened. If the horse kind of goes into a relaxed state, has a bit of a lick and a chew, and kind of stands there for a minute, you can go, okay, that that meant something to that horse's nervous system, and then the next step will be easier, and then the next step will be easier. And then and they're like, okay, like my system now gets that new programming, and then Yeah, and then and then you see it in their movement after that. So if you don't get that integration, then the next time you pull them out of the paddock, they'll be the same as they were before. Even if you got them, you thought that they got the movement well. If the nervous system didn't integrate it, then it will just be the same. And what should happen is that every session, if you worked with something with your horse the previous session, the next session they should be a little bit better. They should be like, oh yeah, my body remembers how that felt. And that felt really good for me. I felt balanced, I felt safe, I felt like I had better control, I felt like I had better stability. Obviously, they they don't necessarily think all of that, but their nervous system told them like that's it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 31:00

But isn't that but isn't that what we go through when we're learning something? Because I I know that a lot of the time I hear from people, oh my horse just can't get it. Yeah. Well, maybe you didn't give them the time for it to register because because you know, I used to be a dancer, you know, I was doing professional dancing, competition dancing, and uh, you know, and you had to learn choreography and you you had a partner, and sometimes he'd get it and you didn't, sometimes you got it and he didn't, and yet you're the same teacher, same steps, same, you know, same philosophy. It's everybody takes something different and you've got to it's got to connect. And and the more you got it the first time, the more you could just make it look really great in a shorter space of time. So I'm loving the fact that we're drawing these parallels so that people can go, hey, it takes me a while to do that. Now, listen, dancing, most people have two left feet. I used to teach it. Um, so think about yourself learning choreography because that's what animals are doing, that's what horses are doing. They're learning choreography and it takes time to register. So I'm loving that. Wish I could have had you around maybe when I was learning my steps and and telling my telling my instructor that uh I need a bit more time on that, or can you give me another version? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because sometimes we get new stuff the day before a major comp, you know, and we're supposed to master it and do it. Yeah, yeah. And there's a there's an art to how your brain works, how you work, and that's what some people work out and some horses work out, and why some horses, you know, work better than others, and it all depends on what that person's doing with them. I I I I love that. That brings us to the end of part one of my conversation with Dr. Raquel Butler. Today we explored the fascinating world of biomechanics and why it's so important to allow the horse's nervous system time to integrate in a healthier way of moving and how to recognize when that shift is actually happening. In part two, we take this conversation even further. We explore how behavior and emotions also play a role in movement and well-being. Dr. Raquel shares some incredibly helpful body language cues that can help you better understand what your horse may be experiencing and how to develop a far deeper relationship with your horse. And we also touch on something many horse people feel but don't always talk about learning to trust your intuition.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

We're in a desert sandstorm with a camel. If you could help us get out of the podcasting desert and into the sparkling oasis of podcasting popularity of downloads, by tapping the downloads button or a subscribe, that would be lots of help. That was the camel. Also thanking you. But up next, what does the animal think?

SPEAKER_04 33:54

What does the animal think? You might think they like it. Do they really? The topic today is cats, and more specifically, the teeth of cats. Let's face it, it's no easy feat to get cats to do anything they don't want to do. So when it comes to keeping their teeth clean, that can be quite the challenge. Why? Because while it might seem obvious to us, it's definitely not obvious to our cats. Has your vet ever said that your cat's teeth need cleaning or that their gums aren't looking healthy? That perhaps they need to chew on things like a chicken neck to help keep them clean. Well, does that vet know your cat? Because they certainly don't know mine. What started out as a simple solution quickly turned into a complete debacle. My cats love the necks at first, but soon they become nothing more than a new favourite tour. I mean I'd find them tucked down in the couch cushions, or worse, rotting under the fridge. And I'm not alone. Many of my clients have faced the same lifelong dilemma. But there are other options, so I decided to ask my clients what they'd been using, and several mentioned Royal Canon Dental. They swore their cats loved it. Of course, being an animal communicator, I couldn't just take their word for it. I had to ask the animals themselves. Our special animal testers today come direct to you from Scarborough in Western Australia. Two very special feline guests, Bella and Luca, who live with their lovely person Claire. Luca is a very handsome ginger boy with three legs and a wonderfully mischievous character. I asked him what he thought of these small square morsels of dry cat food. He said, Well, it's food, and you know what? I love food. So I said to Luca, is that all you can say about it? Well, what more do you want me to say? I love food and I eat them and they're fine. So it didn't feel like that was a really majorly comprehensive answer. So of course I went to Bella instead, and Bella is the most beautiful, elegant, and sophisticated tabby I've ever seen. And said, Hey, what do you think? I like them. I like them a lot. I like the crunch to them and I like the way they feel on my teeth. The flavor's nice, but it's more about how they feel. That's what really impresses me. So between the two cats' comments, it's quite a contrast. And that's exactly my point. What the hell do we know? You have to ask your animal, because when it comes to cats, no two are ever the same, not in personality, presence, or opinion.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

But when we spoke to Claire, I've been feeding my two cats Royal Cannon for about ten years now. Well, I'm sure my cats love it because they always leave an empty bowl. But it's also great for their teeth, which is a major concern if you're a cat owner, especially the older cat. And that can be a massive expense. Yeah, it's a fantastic product.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

Royal Canon Dental approved by Bella and Luca. Next up, animal news with Trisha and Donna. Well, this week, Donna, I'd like to talk about cows. But in particular, a specific cow. And this cow is from a little town in Austria. And the cow's name is Veronica. Now, people will have heard about this because it went pretty viral in social media and it went viral everywhere. Because there's kind of two sides to this. It's I think it probably went viral because Veronica was doing something pretty unique and pretty, yeah, it's pretty spiffy, you know? So she had a broom and she had the broom stick part in her mouth, and she was giving herself a scratch in the back and round the tail with the broom, right? Now we've all done this. There used to be back scratches. I'm not sure in your generation, Donna, but there used to be back scratches and there used to be little things, and you know, you can use that. Now, if all those files, you use the long stick loofer that you've got in the shower. You can use or if you're really desperate, you use a ruler. Do we still have rulers? Yeah. So uh we can use a ruler. She used to use sticks apparently. So she's worked this out, thought, oh, I've got to scratch, can't get to it. Hang on, I'll use that, right? And then there was a I think a broom for a deck that used to be used to sweep the deck or whatever it was, and she got hold of that and she started scratching herself. But the unique thing is she switched the broom around to actually hold near the bristle end. So you know how it goes wide, she just just near that, the other end, so that she can do her more sensitive parts, uh, scratch her more sensitive areas with just the rounded end of the broom. So there's no, you know, brisk bristles that are going to be a little spiky for her. So, yeah, pretty, pretty cool. And and you know, we we might do the same thing, you know, and that's what she's doing. But it's fascinated scientists because it's a cow, right? They don't have an opposing thumb. Uh, yeah, not the last time I looked. Um, they don't have theirs, and she's using this, and so they did a big test on Veronica with strict guidelines to see if they could actually say this animal is using a tool. Like, I I don't know about you, but really? And on what authority, like, because they don't have an opposing thumb, if they even look like they're using a tool, they have some intelligence. I I I mean, what do you think about that? Because because interesting enough, I spoke to Veronica, right? I tuned into Veronica and I said, listen, there's big there's been a big sensation about you and your broom or your sticks or whatever you use. And she said, I don't know why. She said, There's been a lot more people around, and she said, and I don't know why, because it's really easy. That's what she said. It's really easy. So why they're making a big deal over it? She can feel what's coming through her person, the people around, they're all fascinated, looking at her with something she's been doing for so long. She doesn't know what what the fascination, what the big look, like it's easy, I've been doing it. Why all of a sudden everybody wants to see what I'm doing? She she was a bit dismayed, right? So let's have a talk about this because I mean, what really, I mean, what really deciphers or makes the decision on intelligence? Right? What what does that? What do you think about this?

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Uh, it it makes me laugh. It makes me laugh that in this day and age, we are still scientists are still sitting there shocked by the intelligence of animals. It's it's at a point now where we're like, come on, you you must be like just say, okay, every animal has an intelligent sentient being inside of it, which we know is very true. We've proven that over and over again. But it is hilarious that each time this comes out, they're shocked. They have to test it over and over again just to make sure it's not a coincidence. And meanwhile, Veronica the Cow is going, Have you tried it yourself? Because it's actually really good. It feels really good. That's the first thing that I heard from her was that have you guys actually tried this? It's really good. I thought, well, yeah, actually, that's why they're fascinated.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Well, I was actually talking to my producer today, and we were talking about the IQ test. And we were just we were talking about does the IQ test only test certain things? Because it certainly doesn't test street smarts, everyday life, problem solving, no matter how smart you are, because we've seen some really so-called, you know, high IQ people do some pretty dumb things. So, you know, off the cuff, and not because, oh, they're just playing a game or whatever, but they haven't worked it out. So it's it's I think it's the interpretation of humans as to what meets intelligence in our realm, but but the animals are not in our realm, so to speak. So why are they being governed, you know, by tools? I'm sure lots of animals, and what I'm laughing about now is it's coming out all the time. This animal's now using a tool, this insect's now using a tool. All the animals have said, oh, let's just show them. Like a come on, you know, we're sick of being called dumb. It was okay for a while. It didn't really worry us, but hang on a minute, now a cow's getting seen. Hey, maybe maybe we need to show what bees can do and we can show what insects can do. And, you know, everyone treats the animal kingdom like they're dumb, and we know so different. Like we've learned from the animal kingdom and the plant kingdom, and there's so much um innate intelligence there. There's just, I can't even describe it. And humans are just ignoring it. And I think I've said this before: like, can we fly? No, we have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get in a big metal thing that's quite dangerous to get anywhere. And yet you've got an albatross that goes thousands of kilometres and they go, oh, but they can't speak, but they can. So they do communicate, they have this silent language. You and I know about it because we speak the same language as animals. They also have a type of verbal, you know, where depending on what type of animal they are. So exactly why do we treat these other species that, you know, oh, they have the mentality of a five-year-old or they have the mentality of a four-year-old. Take a look around the world and take a look at some humans who are adults and tell me they're not acting as young as that. Like, I think we need to start and or stop thinking that we are the be all and end all, because truly we are just not. And as far as saying, oh, well, humans might be the superior species, well, I'm sorry, they've made a damn mess of this planet and they still are. Look at all the all the conflict around the world. It's not the animals causing that. What exactly around the world that we're worried about, are they c causing climate change? Are they are they causing, you know, uh this? Are they causing uh wars? Are they ca have a look. If we're so great, why is the world in such a mess? What's your opinion, Donna? Because honestly, it's pretty clear.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Oh, I think humans just have fallen over head over heels in love with their own intelligence. We've been comparing ourselves against everything for you know for hundreds and hundreds of years. Well, have we really grown in advance? I don't think so. Maybe tech wise, maybe a little bit in other ways, but Animals don't pollute the environment. They are not overconsuming. They're not greedy. They're not doing things out of malice. They don't come with alternative agendas at all. They are so honest and so upfront that we humans really need to learn a lot from them. We could learn so much, particularly about compassion and about empathy and kindness. A lot of the time, as I'm sure you would know too, animals say to us, Why are we so cruel to each other? Why are we so cruel to our fellow beings? What why we have no where's our love? Where's our kindness and support? And I don't think being uh rational and being able to create these things makes us that intelligent.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

No. And you know, I was watching an expert um the other night, and uh he was talking about that a lot of the carbon emissions um come from our waste, and that we needed, this was a massive expert. He he said we need to cut down on our waste, and we're talking about the tons and tons of food we throw away. Now, everybody's complaining, I'm not saying all countries or cultures, it's much more complex than this, but we're all complaining about, you know, standard of living, the cost of living. Well, if we're so worried about the cost of living, how can we afford to throw things away? And that's because he said we're not factoring in takeaway, we're not factoring in this. People buy that food and then they don't use it. So are we really as hard up as we say? If we can waste all that tons, are we contributing to our own demise? So the experts are now coming out with all of this because animals don't waste. They eat what's there, they only eat what they need, they move on. And everything in nature does get cleared up by something or someone else. It doesn't with us. You know, if something looks a slightly a bit, you know, we throw it out. I mean, we only have to talk about. Um, I remember doing a whole uh thing on this, a whole blog on this, because like years and years and years ago, maybe in our mum and dad's era, you you would order things. You would order things from a shop that you needed. So you'd put an order in for it so that they'd know what the demand was before they worried about the supply, right? I mean, they obviously had some supply, but they would only, for want of a better word, kill and do other things, depending on how many people needed it and everything else. It seemed like a much better situation. Maybe not as convenient, but certainly not causing the problems we're having today. You go into the shops, and don't you ever wonder with those aisles and aisles of not the packet food and all the processed, because we shouldn't be probably going down there anyway, but in all the fresh foods, there's just reams of meat or reams of fish or reams of vegetables, all of this, where does it go if it does not get sold? Does it go to homeless? Does it go to people that need it? Does it just get thrown out? Does it get wasted? You know, I did a big um, I did a big thing on um it and it's not just cooking shows, but cooking shows, you know, it would break my heart where they'd say, Oh, we've got to cook something in 50 minutes and it's got to do this, this, and this. So they go and get this huge fish uh uh out of the the cooler bear, and then they'd start cutting up and make a mistake and go, oh, I made a mistake and throw the fish in the bin. That's a life. That's been cut short, and now it's not even being consumed. Then they go get another one. It's like it's just a disposable thing. That's how we've become. It's not. Every one of those things that was caught or utilized had a life. And even the vegetables have a life. They were growing, they're put there, and to throw them away is not only a sacrilege, but now it's being seen as it's contributing to our missions and to our problems. So again, are we going to take responsibility? Are we going to start that he suggested writing a food menu and saying, what do you actually need for the week? Like I waste virtually zero because I'll buy smaller amounts, or if I do buy it, I'll freeze it, or I'll just go, I don't really feel like it, but I need to use it. It's a simple decision, but it can make such a difference. I think just like Veronica's intelligence, I think we need to think differently about animals. We need to think differently about many things and the behaviors and things that we're doing. We're not the ultimate because we've said it before. We take us off the planet, the planet thrives, we take the animals off the planet, we die. It's it's as simple as that. So we need, in a way, to earn our keep here in a lot of ways, and not contribute to the demise of others or the planet. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 49:01

I think I absolutely agree with you. I think we do need to go back to using only what we need. There's no need to get greedy, there's no need to overstore. We don't need to overstore. You're just gonna let it sit there, it goes to waste. It's such a harmful thing. And you just you feel it in yourself that, oh, I why did I not use that extra piece? Or why did I not use that extra plant there? And I think that the more we start to become more consciously aware of our impact on the planet, then we can start to see quietly and powerfully the change that we can bring it back to positive and become more harmoniously living with the planet instead. And I think that's where we should be going anyway.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

Totally. And just say, not possible, but just say my waste was one ton and I stopped doing that, and then 10 people in my street top doing that. You times that by one ton, you keep times in it, and you will come to the conclusion, oh my god, I've just changed the planet. And that's the impact. We all have to work together. We all have to be doing it, not just some, and it needs to be brought more to the attention. Unfortunately, it's become a bit like the, you know, some other times when we've been talking, whether it's tourism or something else, the money is speaking, not the logic. If you if you want a better planet for your children, you want this planet to last, if we want things to happen, we have to make the changes. We've already gone to free-range animals, we've already changed into, you know, better practices. We've got a long way to go, but we're starting to change. We have to make the demands and say, our demands are going to be this, and the supply will adjust to meet it. Otherwise, people won't be making money. So they will do that. We just have to decide. We can change this, you know, it's up to you. I think it's just a mindset. The same as when you talk to a cow like Veronica, when you talk to animals and you can hear them, they are sometimes the most intelligent conversation I've had all day. Uh so actually, most of the time, but I'm trying to be polite. Um, so they don't small talk small talk, they just talk what matters. They they give you relevance for everything. They're non-judgmental, they're unconditional. We could go on, but I think that the people who really understand animals already know these. They also understand the planet. There's a lot of plant lovers out there that love that just as much as uh an animal or anything else. But we need to love our planet to make it thrive. Because I want you to all think that if you don't have this planet, where are you going? Are you going to get on that spaceship and go to Mars where it's uninhabitable? Well, uh, what's the what's the comment you always make about that, Donna? Go to Mars. Yeah, you you you always make a comment that we can't look after the planet we're on. Why are we going to go to another and just destroy that one?

SPEAKER_02 52:02

It's just comment human. It's not happening every time. It will. If we go, if we end up over there, we're gonna repeat the same patterns again. We're gonna destroy everything on there again. Sometimes I think maybe the worst humans, like the ones that just are not responsible for this planet, send them up there anyway. They'll probably end up destroying themselves. And at least that way the planet here can thrive again. Might be a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Yeah, because there are beautiful, amazing people out there that want to save the planet and they're working really hard. We meet them every day. They're just the minority. So if we can make them the majority, if if the people that don't want to save this planet, we'll send you to Mars. Go there. Yeah, no problem. And then we'll get this one to thrive. But of course, you can't come back. The wheel. Um, so you know, because yeah, and there's so much we can do, and we need to hear more of it, and that's where we need to go. I get very excited about that because we can make the change. We've already seen it. We've already seen it. And it's not everybody. There's so many amazing people that are working so very hard to get that message across, and they feel very passionate about it. So we just want to know that we're on board too, and we're we're behind you, and we're trying to help. And and uh and to anybody else out there that who really wants to help but sometimes says, What can I do? You can do a lot. You can join the rest of the group, the rest of the people, and work alongside all of us, all of the ones who help. There's plenty of people out there trying to make a difference. Get part of, become part of their community, and you'll just see it thrive and get bigger and bigger, and we'll start to see results. And then we also need to pressure the government into policies that are also going to help the animals and the environment. We really need to do that. It's run, we're running out of time. I just want to put it out there. Might be okay for me, depends where you're at in your timeline. But if you were a child just being born right now, well, we have to think of them. Because it's not fair that they haven't been given the same beautiful beauty and and everything else. But we we have to look at the whole picture and realize that everything has to be in balance, including humans. Because if we got overrun by hyenas, for instance, where would we be? Well, everybody'd probably get eaten and you know, lots of other things would happen. We have to look at balancing everything across the planet. And uh and David Attenborough's done a good job of explaining that and why we need to do it. So uh keep watching his documentaries because he has a lot of the answers, and uh and we'll follow him too. See you next time. If you love this episode, please make sure you're following Animal Talk with Trisha McKay on your favorite podcast platform. Share this episode with one of your horsey friends and leave us a review. It helps more people find these important conversations. And remember, when we understand the horse, we understand trust, partnership, and the power of presence. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep talking with animals.